Radio Maine Episode 43: Doug Caves

 

1/2/2022

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to, or watching, Radio Maine. We appreciate you joining us today. I have Artist, Doug Caves, with me in the studio. Thanks for coming in today!


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It’s a wonderful place. 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Thank you. We are very intrigued by the work that you do, Doug, and specifically this painting that you brought in today, because it actually reminds me of Maine, the pastoral nature of Maine, the farming community. What's the name of this painting?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Well, this painting is called the Evening Before. It refers to the evening before the mowing. So that's why the farm equipment is sort of staged there. The rural aspect of New England just grabs me, you know? As we were talking earlier, I just have this affinity for the natural space, the outdoors. I feel that it understands me and I understand it. And so I like being put into it. And so this image is of the general field. This is one of my very favorite go-to places to paint. It's the General Field; just below the Groton School in Groton Massachusetts. That's the prep school just below it.  To the south of this is the town of Ayer but in between it is this General Field.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

When I first started painting this scene about 10 years ago, this is an old painting of mine, it was very rustic, the houses were rustic. They needed paint. They were empty and the barns were empty. Not that they weren’t still being used, but they were empty. I just started painting and I was just so fascinated because the light would come up from the east.  And then to the west is Mount Wachusett, which is the tallest peak in the area. I  think it's 3000 feet. The light just moved across there, it was so good! I was just so fascinated by the way the light landed on these old clapboard structures and the foliage.

That's what it's about. Yes. I don't want to ramble, but I try to get into the gush of the color, you know, the transposing. I want to say reconciling what you know about paint and application of paint, and then what nature is doing. I hate using that word nature, but you know, what your environment is doing and how it's reacting that vibration between the two. So I'm always trying to understand what that vibration is, and that's what I'm trying to capture, if that makes any kind of sense at all. You know, sometimes it works and sometimes it's very elusive. I think I just wanted to paint the light in the window there, but that was it, you know, it's actually a bit simple.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. I mean that is really interesting to look at that middle structure and that light, and to think that you could actually kind of create something around it.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes, well, yes, the surrounding is the environment that you're in, you know. I like architectural structures, I used to live down the Cape and we in fact have been in Provincetown for a summer. I loved walking on the side streets down there because of these all old clabbered houses that were the original house and then the add on, and then the add on, and then the add on, and then the shapes that they made as they tumbled down the street and the foliage would come into it. I was just so connected with that. It resonated with me and I always wanted to figure out how to express that. So I'm still trying to figure that out.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I'm hearing you speak, your words are gushing and tumbling. There's so much activity to your words and so much of a sense of energy that comes out of the external environment and your desire to use the tools that you have to put it onto a two dimensional surface. I mean, you're trying to bring something that's multi-dimensional and translate it so that we have that to participate in. But that's such an interesting challenge.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes. Yes. Wow. That's really well said. You should be my publicist. That's great. That's kind of how I feel about it. That's so hard to put into words, but yes. I do instructional courses sometimes online and sometimes in person. So one of the things that I talk about, one of the themes I talk about is that making a painting is sort of like conducting a symphony orchestra. I have no musical ability whatsoever, but I love to listen to music and I love classical music. You want to get in there and you want to finish the painting up in two minutes, you know? So I always talk about how it's bringing everything up. Bringing the Piccolo's, bringing the strings, bringing the brass, bringing it all along, and then hearing the sounds, finding the balance. Start with the vague and then move to the specific. Oftentimes for me, that's a process of discovery.

I don't know where the paintings will finally end up. You know, most of my work is done in the studio. I do work plein air  whenever I can, but often I can't. So over the years, most of my work is done in the studio. It gives me this sort of you know envelope, what's the word I'm thinking of? Bubble, that I can work in. Where I can shut out that the external, you know, the delivery man, the passer-by wants to tell you about their uncle who painted it, and all that stuff. So it helps me to sort of hear the colors if that makes any sense. I liken it to conducting because you have to bring up all the issues. The color, the texture, the weight line. Just the basics, the elements of painting. 

Every time I have something to say, like what's the next thing I want to say? I don't always want to say so much.  With the last few years, I really have been more introverted and more reclusive. My wife sorta has to drag me out of the house a little bit. Not that I'm, you know, I'm not crazy about it. But, I'm just reluctant to venture out into society so much these days. So one of the things that is a result of that is where for the last 7-10 years, most of my paintings have been landscapes that are still lives where there's nobody in them and, and the streets and the fields are empty.

Now I'm bringing people into the picture. I had this desire to understand how that works with painting. It takes me back to my teenage years when one of my first heroes was Rembrandt. I thought, gee, boy, if I could just paint like Rembrandt! There's layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of that symphony that builds up, that symphony of color. I thought that would be good, but then, as other things came along I lost focus. In art school, I went to a school where my roommates and I were all in the art program. We were dedicated, almost like cultists. We would go into class and hear the lecture on painting, and then we'd rush home and go to the studio. We were up all day and worked all night until we ran out of steam waiting for that next fix. We had a very inspiring painting teacher and a very wise, calm, understanding, and helpful drawing teacher and sculpture teacher. I just think of him all the time. The lessons often come back. Like, what did he mean by that? The painting teacher used to always say that you have to come down from up there, to do art, you gotta step down.

I was alway asking, what does he mean by that? I think I know what that means. You're sort of in an elevated mental state, but to actually make the painting, you got to step into the dirt and you got to get your hands dirty and paint on your shoes and everything. So I was really good at that, getting paint on my shoes. But lately I've been thinking about Vladimir Nabokov, his book, The Gift. I'm thinking like that. I think that's what he's talking about. It's that passing through. You're passing through your existence, your life, your essence, who you are, you're living that out in this world. We really don't know anything. I mean, we're just guessing all the time but we're going on intuition. The lessons that we learned from pain or from wise counsel. That's kind of where my head's been lately. It's like, well, I'm getting near the end now, this journey has been pretty interesting. What are my last statements that I want to lead before I'm off, and out of here. So I think about that a lot, I think about that phase of life, you know?


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So if you're talking about your legacy, it sounds like that's what you're describing?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes. I guess that's part, that's an aspect of it. You have to have a legacy to leave one, I suppose.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But that's what I was going to ask. So what is that for you?  If somebody is coming along behind you and seeing the work that you've created, what do you hope that legacy will be?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Gosh, that's a good question. I never thought of that. No one's ever asked me before. Well, when I do instruction I try to make two things really clear. The first one is, as I say, this is how I do it. It's not how you're gonna do it, but, this is how I approach it. And hopefully what you'll pick up is process, the mental process. But also, your process, the stick, the perseverance that you need. Then the second thing is when people say, oh, is this what you want me to do? And I say, no, I don't want you to do anything except for what comes out of you. So that's, if anything, what I would want other painters who come after me, all painters that are serious about painting, that are traveling that path where you discover what's coming out of you, what your message is. I'm still looking for it, you know?

Sometimes I think like art painting, it's like magic. It's like magic, like computers are magic. For a while, I was really into relational databases, Microsoft access, and just building them, making them do things. The way you would connect disparate entities with a common entity. And I thought, Jesus it's just fascinating how you can make all these things happen. You can pull up information. Then, I think painting is sort of like that too. You're trying to pull together different entities finding what unites them.What their relationship is, what's the relationship of the color and the house to the background, to the mountain. And how does that work in relation? And does it set up any kind of particular vibration or harmony?

One of the favorite lessons I had in painting class was that we used to have to get packs of coloraid, which is this really nice paper, but it's like 2-3000 different colors. If you take green, you know, you'll have 50 or a hundred shades of green, so we'd have problems. I forget who actually made this for these first lessons, but our painting teacher gave them to us and I've forgotten. I'm terrible with remembering them, but you would do things like you would have lessons where you would say you'd have one square here, one square here in different colors. And, depending on what you'd put on the back of them, they'd look the same. Or you take two colors that are the same, and put different colors behind them to make them look different. So that relational thing. Then the romantic side of making colors, that's one of the things that always inspires me. Like when I started painting, I had to look at it and say, can I find the tune? Can I find the melody in this? Sometimes it doesn't happen, but then sometimes it's by surprise. You find that right combination. I know some painters, willl have an idea of what they're going to paint, and then they just paint it, then that's it. Then they just throw it away. But, my approach is more like, well, I'm going to have a relationship with this painting with this canvas now for the next month or two months or three months, you know? I'm going to grow a little bit from it. Hopefully I'll leave this object behind, that has some things that I want to look at in the future. And hopefully other people will look at it too. 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, as you're talking, I'm thinking that we have a very, especially in our culture, we're very individual focused, but that's not actually reality. None of us is standing out there in a field by ourselves. We're all only something in relation to all of the elements around us. So it's a kind of systems theory. It's this idea that it's the ecosystem. So I think what you're describing is not only how do all these things relate, but how do you optimize these things with the relationship to painting? How do you optimize the colors? How do you optimize the sheep and the light, and how do you, as you said, make things sing?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes, right. It's the challenge of seeing if you can do it. I like to paint paintings that I don't know how to do. Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this or not. And that's part of the kick for me is to see if I can do it.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That's interesting too, because some people really want to drill down, they want simplicity. They want to know that they're going to be able to get from point A to point B. They're not motivated by that uncertainty that you're describing, but for you, the uncertainty is a driving force. Yes?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

It's the discovery that is the reward. So think of my days in terms of exploration, discovery, and invention. So I try to sign out of each day with exploration. You know, get a cup of coffee and go sit outside, just look at things for a while. Sit and just practice looking and then it's like you discover. Usually it doesn't take long, but something clicks with that process of looking. So then I go into the studio and I'm already sort of in second gear. And then the discovery is this getting in there? You know, I just love the physical aspect of painting. I've always loved it. I'm comfortable with fluids if that makes sense, like pouring cement, making things.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And I just seem to know how to handle the viscosity of fluids, you know? So you get an affinity for your materials, I guess, is what I'm saying. And so I like working with hard things too, like lumber, you know, I'm a bit of a carpenter and you know, last summer one of the things that I want to do when I finally left my day job was to rebuild this garage there's separate garages in my home, which is over a hundred years old. And it had started riding out in the last 10 years or so. So I did it, you know, I did it all by myself and I and that was part of the, the thing to do it, you know, not to hire somebody, but to do it.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And I was able to do it, you know, now, and then and do it again. But it's, you know it's like something I had to do. So I had to cross that bridge, cross that Rubicon to get that done. Probably I felt bad because for the last 15 years I had neglected the roof. And the tree fell on it, you know? And so I felt, you know, that that practical need to, to repair it, but it was also this sort of art thing where like, well, no, the process of designing it getting the rafters up, how do I get those up by myself? You know, stuff like that. I always find it amazing what humans can do when they have to do it. And so I keep hoping that eventually as a culture and, as a race, you know, the human race that we'll, we'll kind of figure out, oh, there's some things that we have to pay attention to.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And, you know, maybe we should stop putting our mind to it instead of, you know, instead of building, why not focus, broaden our horizons, that kind of thing, you know, your day. I was well for throughout all my years, I had always worked here when I took a summer off from school. I started with a friend of mine painting houses. And after, you know, a couple of housesI was like, I'm pretty good at this, you know, I can make some money. And so I worked that kind of stuff all through my mid twenties or so. And you know, I, I was one of those guys that had a truck, and a painting crew and I painted houses. But while I was doing that, I did a lot of new construction and I observed all of the bones going up.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

So I taught myself how to be a carpenter and the Mason and the tile guy, and a plumber and electrician, you know, so now I know just enough to be really, really dangerous. But so I ended up being in facilities management, you know started out in Western mass as they hired me on as a painting contractor to paint some of their laboratories and whatnot. And and then they liked me and I liked them and they said, well, why don't you just work for us? You know? And it was at the end of that building boom in the eighties and things were, you know, the, the building boom was coming to a close, and I could use a change. So I did that. And then they paid for me to finish up my bachelor's and I went from, but I ended up being in, you know, I try to say in a pause.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

I ended up being a supervisor. And then later on I moved around and worked in Boston for awhile, but becoming a facilities manager, which is making sure that all the lights are on and the toilets are flushing, you know, people are comfortable and you know so managing the trades, you know, and so did that, did that for quite a while. And then, there was a pair of, I just wasn't painting at all because I was just, I was so into the facilities management thing and I was taking courses in that as well. And so I find that I get lost in my challenges and, and maybe I get too buried into them, but I always thought, well, you know, I've always had paintings, a couple of paintings a year anyways, you know after school.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And so I started to think about maybe 15 years ago that, well, I'm getting older and I'm not painting. I need to paint. And so I just did it, you know, just got the paints out and then I just started devoting every evening. So I had two jobs, you know, and one was being the daycare for facilities and then coming home and painting into the evening. So I thought of it as my apprenticeship and so that was that. That was very productive, very productive, but it was costly too, you know I didn't sleep much and whatnot. And so now I'm happy just to be painting, you know, and I forgot where I was going with that, but you know.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What your day job was, and then what your evening job was now.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

The job was managing people and, and that, you know, that has its interesting aspects to it. 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But it's fascinating to hear you talk because you have a very significant interest in the abstract and translating the abstract into the physical. And yet somehow you ended up in a very physical world for your day job, but then the people aspect on top of that, which is probably somewhere between abstract and physical, I would say,


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes, yes, very abstract


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes, exactly. So you're, it seems like for you, you've always, somehow kind of kept yourself up in the clouds, somewhat allowing your brain to make connections, but then also


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But also the grounded-ness also the looking up at the roof and saying, oh, I think I need to fix that. So that's an interesting thing for people to be for someone to like you to be so abstract, but also meeting so much to be grounded. Yes.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes. I agree with that assessment. I was told that once before I was working in a shoe factory, one of the many jobs I had in my late teens. And I went from being this guy who was doing a backpot mold machine. So I take an upper slip, a piece of plastic in the heel, put the heel and this machine, pull a  lever, and it would form this back heel and just did that eight hours a day, you know, and then I got a job as a postural manager and it's like, oh, so this is completely different only because I volunteered time to do some inventories, stuff like that. And then, so, yes, I had this interest in how things are organized, how things relate to one another and, how they get prioritized and how we prioritize as humans.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Because that's also constructed. And then but and then they brought in this guy from Maine who was a designer pattern maker and they were teaching me how to do that. And that was really interesting. We would design shoes and he was into signing these what we made boots, but he was into designing like women's fancy shoes. So, you know, with straps and no tolls and all that stuff. So we were doing different things like that. And I had a great experience learning all this, but the guy had halitosis and I had to sit this close to him. It was horrible. It's just really horrible. And I was still pretty young. I don't know if I was maybe in my early twenties or whatever, but I was probably in my teens, anyhow, I just left, I just left.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

I said, I'm going back to school. And that's what I did. I got a job as a waiter and I went to school and, you know, the owner of the factory, he saw me at the place where I was waiter and he said, well, you know, you had an interesting combination of pragmatism and vision or whatever, whatever word you, I liked the word vision. So I'd throw that in there. I thought that's interesting, you know? I think so, yes, it creates a dynamism. It creates stress in me, you know, every day and I think that's important. It's part of how I get things done because without it, then, you know, what am I doing?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

You know, just sitting there reading a John Grisham novel or something, you know? But so, you know, you think, I think about all of the influences, my grandfather was a painter and my father was not, he was an engineer and my father was, you know, just said, you're not going to be an artist, you know, that's not going to happen, and I'm one of four boys, you know, and I was the next to the youngest. So I really had to think about that, you know, and I thought about that for many, many years, many decades. And so I think one of the premises I had was, well, if you put the paints away and you put the canvas away and you can do that and live with yourself and be comfortable, then you're not, you're not really a painter.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

So I tried it and the paints came back, I just had to do it, you know, so I thought, okay, well then, I'm gonna be a painter, you know? And so now I'm going to really develop. And then this is, like I said, about 15 years ago. And I said, well, okay I know I'm not faking it, I am not doing it because of the glamour, because of the money. I'm doing it because I need to, or I want to anyways, you know, so that's, the play for the, for years, I just didn't understand what was the point of making the art? You know, it's like Steve Martin's line. I felt like I had just enough philosophy to screw me up for about 20 years. You know is it is just a selfish kind of pursuit because you really have to, you've got to push everybody out, you know, when you're, when you're working and it's lonely in the studio, you know, you don't, you know, it's hours, where you’re just by yourself.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

So, you know you gotta want to do all that, you know, but like, why what's the point, you know, does art make a difference? You know, does making art make a difference, do poems, poems really affect anybody, you know, does a good novel really…  and so, and I kind of said, well, yes, it does kinda. But I had such a hard time just getting over the training that was in my head that you just, you're not going to do that. You know? So my father and my grandfather had, you know, like any, I suppose parents had their difficulties with it, although they reconciled towards the end, but my father was very much opposed to that. 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So you contained those within yourself, your, your, you embodied your father and his father, and for years, your whole life, it sounds like those, those like tension the tension within you. I mean, that's such a fascinating thing to know about yourself and there's a poetic justice because now you're living back in the house that you grew up in. So not only have you, you claimed yourself, but you went back and you claimed yourself within your own childhood,


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Am I going to have to pay for these sessions?


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well,


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

That's cool. I like that. I mean, those are the themes I think about like, you know, that recycling are returning concepts, theories ideas, just always returning on like, you know, when I was a kid, I was, I was always a great mimic, not as great as my nephew TRO, but who can mimic anybody in any language and you just amazing. But I was pretty good at mimicking fess. What's his name? The guy who played Daniel Boone when I was on TV as a kid,Fess Parker. Yes, I would feel like a persona and sort of just sort of like take it on you know, eight years old, whatever. And we lived in the country, you know, there were woods and farmlands around. So we're always as kids, you know, we'd get pushed out the door in the morning and come back when the light streetlights come on.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And, and so I had this vivid imagination about being; the first time I thought I was Davey Crockett, cause obviously we had the same initials. So I must have been the reincarnation of Davey Crockett, which meant I probably had a pretty bad end coming on my way, you know, but I was convinced, and then I went through a civil war period where I was just fascinated by the civil war. And so I had a little civil war uniform, I don't know what I am, I'm eight years old, maybe with a sword, a plastic sword. I'd be out there having battles all day long. And you know,  when I was growing up there weren't any children in my neighborhood, it was pretty rural. And so there was a boy younger than me next door and a sister who was his oldest sister was my age. And so he ended up playing with his sister most of the time, so I ended up playing by myself, being forced to use my imagination or whatever. So that's funny. I just you know the imagination. So the reason I brought all the mimicking up was because it's another way of getting into, like, understanding something is by taking it on, you know, I suppose actors do that, it's a way of understanding the world or processing it.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And then the challenge of course, is when do you leave off the mimicking and get back to that thing that you were describing before, when you were talking about teaching, where do you leave off? What is important to embody and embrace and understand to come to your own place?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Nancy and I would just take a ride out in the Hills when we would have that question thrown at us. Yeah I don't know. 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Was that Ronald Reagan?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

 Yes, I don't do it anymore


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Because a lot of people probably don't know what he sounds like. But I do.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

I've lost my gift to be a good mimic, but I used to be able to do it pretty well. But you know what, like Robin Williams, Jonathan Winters, they were some of my heroes when I was growing up. I used to love to watch them, used to watch Jonathan Winters on Johnny Carson. I’d sneak into the, my brother was away, my oldest brother, so I’d sneak into his bedroom at night and turn the TV on and watch Jonathan Winters. I mean, watch Johnny Carson and Jonathan Winters and go, wow, he's so different from everybody else. He's just, you know, it's a stream of consciousness, he's out there. He's just pulling from here, he's pulling from there and he's making it work. Somehow he's making you connect with those unexpected relationships and I thought that's pretty interesting. And then Robin Williams was pretty wild at that. So I find that I used to find that just mimicking a character was a way of expressing a well-rounded concept.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

You know, it's like, I don't apologize for this life I live, you know, The Godfather?  I did a whole speech in college once where we had, I had to take speech class, but I'm really bad at giving a practice speech. I said, well, I'll never be able to do this, but I knew that I was able to mimic. So I just got up in front of the class. It did this whole rendition of Marlon Brando I did the Godfather. And that worked out well for me, you know? So again, it was like, I didn't know if I could do it, but it's going to be fun to try it. What's the worst, I've got a bad mark?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

It just seems like everything for me comes to me from an oblique angle or rather I approach everything from an oblique angle. Like I wanted it to be a painter, but I couldn't go from school to being a painter. I had to do all these other activities as well, you know, but I always thought that all of those other activities are part of what makes being an artist work. They're the elements of your process, where you're reaching out to this, and reaching out to that, pulling in color, pulling up, pulling in sampling, pulling in comedy irony, et cetera. So I don't know. I just don't understand that world, but I'd like to, so I keep trying 


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You and I are on the same page. But that's okay.  It makes it kind of fun doesn’t it?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Doesn't it? Well, it makes it interesting. Right. I'm still curious, like, wow. Don't we live in interesting times today. It's just incredible to me how,  I think we're, we're just in such a an upheaval, you know, I guess, and I think I'm speaking globally, but also from my experience within the country where we've gone from having the a kind of unified umbrella of thought of, worldview to this just, you know, diverse and, out to the ends. Instead of being on the top of the bell curve, now, it seems like the ends, the bottom hands where everybody is residing, you know, on one end of the other and I just wished people would get back to being critical thinkers, be more reasonable, be kind, you know?


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

And so kids, if you send me $5. I'm certainly not an evangelist or can I say, I'm not all that out altruistic. I think I'm a pretty selfish person and insular, you know, but there are some things that need to be said, or at least observed, or at least stated like this is crazy. I think the turmoil that we find ourselves in and, historically, we're just, you know, we're in that historic place where things start to fall apart. And isn't that an interesting time to live in? Well, it sure is because as systems and things start to fall apart I guess there's more opportunities for humans to be human or not. So I don't know, it just hurts a little bit, you know? Yes. But if you send $5 to this address, what was the guy on Saturday night live? He’s  Al Frank and I used to love him, and he'd always give a little political speech and then he said, send $5 in an envelope. You, you know, you can send $5. You need to staple it to a 2005 Porsche and send that to me and that'd be fine, you know? But yes, I don't know where I'm going with that.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I've enjoyed speaking with you. I appreciate your taking the time to come in and talk with us today.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Thank you for talking with me. I appreciate it. You’ll have to send me a bill for the counseling.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

There was no counseling. Observations only.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Yes.


 

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I've been speaking with artist Doug Caves. If you'd like to see more of his work at the Portland Art Gallery and on the Portland Art Gallery website. I've really enjoyed having the opportunity to ponder the larger questions of the world and art. So thank you for doing that with me today, Doug.


 

Douglas H. Caves Sr.:

Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. My pleasure.